BRIAN KENNY: Of all of the weapons of conflict, there may be one which has been known as the proper soldier. The landmine. It by no means sleeps, by no means hesitates. Introduced within the American Civil War in 1862, landmines have been a battlefield staple ever since. It’s estimated that there are 110 million within the floor proper now, with extra being deployed yearly. According to Landmine Monitor, they kill or maim about 5,000 folks a 12 months, largely civilians and most frequently in areas missing primary human companies. For those that survive a mine blast, lack of a foot or leg is nearly inevitable. A life devastated. But for a few of these victims, that’s not the top of the story. Today on Cold Call, we welcome Srikant Datar, Dean of Harvard Business School, to talk about his case, BMVSS: Changing Lives, One Jaipur Limb at a Time. I’m your host, Brian Kenny, and also you’re listening to Cold Call on the HBR Podcast Network. Srikant Datar is an skilled within the areas of price administration and administration management, technique implementation and governance. He’s a big advocate of design considering, which we’re going to speak about right this moment, and he additionally occurs to be the Dean of Harvard Business School. Srikant, thanks for becoming a member of me on Cold Call.
SRIKANT DATAR: What a pleasure, Brian, to be with you once more. I bear in mind doing this podcast with you, I believe no less than two, three years-
BRIAN KENNY: It was 2018 really.
SRIKANT DATAR: 2018. Five years in the past, so I’m delighted to be again.
BRIAN KENNY: And it’s not simply any episode. This is the 2 hundredth episode of Cold Call. So we’re thrilled to have you ever right here as our visitor to rejoice this milestone. It’s a huge deal to us and we’re thrilled to have you ever right here.
SRIKANT DATAR: It is a huge deal for the School, so thanks for having me.
BRIAN KENNY: I believe one of many issues that we’ll speak about right this moment as effectively, each episode of Cold Call is based on a case written by a Harvard Business School college member. It’s in our DNA. This is the factor the School might be greatest recognized for. And so I do need to discuss a little bit about your opinion of what makes for an everlasting case, and so we’ll get into that a little bit extra. But why don’t we simply begin by having you inform us what the central subject is within the case and what your chilly name is to begin the dialogue at school.
SRIKANT DATAR: The central subject within the case is, can design considering be utilized by a company in a approach that’s repeatable? And so my chilly name is, you learn the case, there are a complete host of improvements which can be described within the case. Was this actually a course of by which all these improvements occurred, or was it simply a likelihood occasion? For occasion, the case begins off by one of many individuals who is concerned in growing these concepts, observing in a excessive density polyethylene (HDPE) irrigation pipe, after which out of the blue considering, geez, that may very well be one thing that may very well be used to really present the shank that’s wanted to connect the foot when a individual is maimed or loses their limb. But is that simply not a likelihood occasion or is there a course of? And there are lots of such situations that the case goes by means of that forces a pupil to take into consideration, was it simply luck or was there one thing happening on this group that allowed it to frequently innovate in many various methods, which I’m positive we’ll speak about.
BRIAN KENNY: Yes. How did you hear concerning the Jaipur Limb?
SRIKANT DATAR: This is likely one of the advantages of getting analysis facilities all around the world. So Anjali Raina, who was our director of the analysis heart in Mumbai, who had seen the Jaipur Limb case or had heard concerning the Jaipur Limb state of affairs and helped set up the writing of the case. And she knew about my curiosity in innovation and design considering and she or he thought it might be a excellent match. So that’s the way it began.
BRIAN KENNY: When I requested you to be on the present right this moment, I mentioned decide no matter case you need to decide. Why did you resolve to select this one? And I suppose this will get a little bit to the query I’ve about what to your thoughts… You’ve been instructing the case technique for 25 plus years right here at Harvard Business School. What makes for an everlasting case and a good case dialogue?
SRIKANT DATAR: It’s a essential query and one in all course that we’ve thought lengthy and exhausting about. Let me first say why I picked this specific case as a case that I actually get pleasure from instructing. It sheds mild in ways in which you won’t anticipate on the time that you simply’re studying the case. It forces you to suppose at a deeper degree. It allows a lot of debate and debate since you may really make arguments on either side on this specific case. And the depth of understanding that that enables or achieves by means of that course of of debate and deliberation is sort of exceptional. Very typically what you bear in mind from the case and why you bear in mind it’s since you by no means went into the case with that specific standpoint. But if you heard the dialogue and it deepened your understanding, whether or not you modified your thoughts or not, no less than you’re serious about that subject in a very completely different approach. And it’s the truth that you have got considered it in a different way, as a result of the case has this richness of a resolution level the place cheap folks may disagree, that makes for these instances to be so enduring and memorable.
BRIAN KENNY: And I like this one specifically too as a result of that is a actual human subject. So we’re focusing, and so a lot of our instances do that, I believe they’re compelling tales in and of their very own proper, and so they do a nice job of showcasing administration and management in conditions the place you simply won’t give it some thought. So I favored it for that purpose as effectively. Can you inform us a little bit about what life could be like for an amputee in one in all these conflict torn areas of the world the place landmines are so prevalent?
SRIKANT DATAR: It’s such a troublesome state of affairs, Brian. It occurs fairly unexpectedly, as you described, and you might be simply out of the blue affected in a approach that you simply consider won’t ever get you out of the unlucky state of affairs wherein you might be in. So first, it’s the shock of the occasion. Second, it’s the truth that there isn’t actually a excellent resolution for it. And third, it’s the form of occasion that if there isn’t any resolution for it, the form of life you’d lead relative to what you thought proper earlier than that occasion occurred is dramatically completely different. So I believe in any of those conditions, it’s actually very highly effective when you possibly can take into consideration options to primary human wants of a kind that you simply by no means even imagined.
BRIAN KENNY: Let’s discuss a little bit about design considering as a result of that elements closely into the theme of the case. There are insights that had been gleaned by means of the work that they did as they thought actually about this from the affected person’s perspective. And so typically we don’t give it some thought from the client or the affected person’s perspective. Tell us a little bit about design considering, I suppose out of your standpoint and what a couple of the insights had been that led them down this path of designing the prosthesis in the best way that they did.
SRIKANT DATAR: There are a number of steps that you simply undergo if you do design considering, Brian. The first and an important is to have this deep empathy and understanding for person wants. In this case, the affected person. But the second is, I believe this perception that if you are able to do this and this group’s perception that you are able to do this, with two assumptions that I believe most of us consider are wanted. First, you want a lot of cash. I needed to write a case on a company that had no cash. And but as a result of it believed that deep understanding of a affected person may assist deal with essential issues, they had been in a position to innovate in superb methods. And second, that it’s a course of. It is one thing that if you’re keen to follow it, and it’s a doing talent, so when you’re keen to follow it and you’ve got the suitable mindset, you possibly can really innovate in superb methods.
BRIAN KENNY: Let’s discuss a little bit about BMVSS. I gained’t even strive to pronounce what it stands for. You is likely to be higher at that than I’m, however let’s speak about that hospital. How did it come to be?
SRIKANT DATAR: Well, it began with this occasion in 1975 when Mr. D.R. Metha is in a automotive accident and is liable to shedding his limb. And fortuitously, it will get saved, he doesn’t have to have an amputation executed. He’s mendacity in that hospital mattress considering, what would’ve my life been like if I had this? And then begins to take into consideration others who may need had this example. And that’s the beginning of his first germ of an thought of forming BMVSS. But I believe there are lots of occasions in our lives once we encounter conditions like that, however it doesn’t all the time find yourself main to this group being created. And there, I believe it was his deep empathy that he had for others. He had that already. So when an occasion like this happens, he was in a position to see this from one other individual’s standpoint fairly than I’m executed now, I don’t want to fear about it. Thank God that my leg wasn’t amputated. And a really exceptional man, a man who believed that he may make a distinction. And then with that empathy, goes and develops this superb group.
BRIAN KENNY: What are a few of the issues that they do at BMVSS simply to cater particularly to their sufferers’ wants?
SRIKANT DATAR: Let me offer you a couple of examples, Brian, that I believe will convey dwelling the factors that I used to be making earlier. So as I mentioned, step one is to develop this deep empathy and understanding. Related to that step is how do you outline the issue? What is the issue you’re making an attempt to remedy? In design considering, you actually spend a lot of time serious about the issue. Are you serious about the suitable drawback? What is fascinating within the case, and you may see it taking part in out in several methods, is college students debate what drawback was Mr. Metha making an attempt to remedy. And one drawback that he was making an attempt to remedy was to restore somebody’s mobility as a result of in spite of everything, that’s an important factor which you could see in entrance of you is a individual with out a limb. But that is the place superb design thinkers, once they’re serious about drawback fixing, give it some thought far more deeply. He really outlined the issue very in a different way. And he mentioned, “The goal of this organization is not just to restore someone’s mobility, it’s to restore their dignity.” And then you definately undergo, within the case, a variety of issues he does in, as a result of principally, you possibly can consider it as a hospital serving to folks match prosthetics. So for occasion, anybody who is available in can are available in at any time at evening, and most of the trains that may attain Jaipur would attain late at evening. And so Mr. Metha would enable these sufferers to be admitted to the hospital at evening. Not throughout working hours. Who’s accessible at evening? And it’s the guard and there are some very fascinating examples. We name this activity unification instruments that you should use to do design considering. And the guard would admit the affected person. And then the place will they keep? Well, he mentioned, “If I’m restoring their dignity, they shouldn’t be just sleeping on the pavement the night before the next day they’re coming.” So they and their households who are sometimes accompanying them, one or two relations, get lodging and meals whereas they’re there.
BRIAN KENNY: That’s exceptional.
SRIKANT DATAR: And I ask, I mentioned, “But aren’t they short on resources? Should he be spending the resources here or should he be spending the resources somewhere else?” And we’ve this nice dialogue, relying on the way you body the issue. You would both view it as a waste of assets otherwise you would view it as a vital factor to do as a result of if he’s making an attempt to restore their dignity, he desires to deal with them on this very dignified approach during the method.
BRIAN KENNY: And restoring their dignity additionally relates immediately to the design of the restrict itself. Our listeners can’t see this, however simply in order that they perceive what I’m saying, the Jaipur foot appears like a foot. It appears like a human foot. And we’re used to seeing prosthesis within the west which have that springy motion. They’re extra like metallic units. Talk a little bit about why they landed on that kind of a design.
SRIKANT DATAR: And once more, it was deep understanding of buyer and affected person wants. And so design considering may be utilized in a wide selection. In this case, the people he’s designing for his sufferers. But my subsequent case will cope with how a firm can do that and design it for prospects. But on this case, there have been cultural causes as a result of folks don’t put on sneakers. So how would that foot look in the event that they had been doing it? They have to stroll on terrain that’s undulated. So how do you have to design the foot in order that it’s comfy for them to stroll? Most folks do handbook work, due to this fact the whole shank, which is the half that connects the place the limb has been misplaced to the foot, has to be mild, has to be sturdy, has to be one which they’ll stroll on and truly do handbook work. It can’t be heavy. It can’t be uncomfortable in that respect. They have to have the option to squat and bend their knees specifically methods, and the foot then strikes in a specific approach. So, the extent of consideration to element on how you’ll design this foot to meet these specific wants are unbelievable. And whilst I mix now the 2 issues, we talked concerning the foot and we talked about how Mr. Metha admits sufferers, he additionally, by the best way, then worries about what they’re going to do after he’s handled them. Are they going to return to the lives like they’d? He asks them questions on what they want to do after which supplies them, would possibly give them carpentry classes, would possibly give them stitching classes, is likely to be a one that sells tea on the railway stations. And why does he try this? Because once more, it’s to restore their dignity. This permits us within the class to take into consideration this idea of journey mapping, that’s, when does he begin serious about the issue? It’s on the time of the accident. When does he cease serious about the issue? It’s once they’ve restored and gotten to a good life. Many occasions we outline the issue very, very narrowly, if you enter the hospital and if you go away, however you don’t broaden it out. When you don’t broaden it out, you lose the chance for innovation as a result of many issues that you possibly can do, you’ll solely innovate, offered you understood the total image.
BRIAN KENNY: Yeah. I’m positive a lot of our listeners are evaluating what you’re describing to their expertise with the healthcare system, whether or not it’s within the United States or in Europe or in different components of the world, which oftentimes is fairly unsatisfactory and also you don’t really feel like they care about you the best way that he’s caring about his sufferers. How is he in a position to scale to prolong the attain of the work in order that he’s serving to as many individuals as attainable? And I suppose I’d begin by saying what number of sufferers are they in a position to care for?
SRIKANT DATAR: At the time of the case is written now, it’s gone above that as effectively, 22,000 that we did within the first. I believe within the replace that we’re doing now, it’s extra nearer to over 30,000, which by the best way is greater than what at the moment, and I consider it’s nonetheless true, the most important group that truly fix-
BRIAN KENNY: That’s superb.
SRIKANT DATAR: … these sorts of limbs. And then as you already know from the case, that once we get into good dialogue about that as effectively, not all sufferers can come. And so then this concept of getting these branches in several components of India after which after all going overseas and working these camps in order that individuals who would profit from these companies even have it. And then fairly often, this gear is then left within the camps so somebody there can now begin growing what they’re doing. By the best way, which is one other design precept he makes use of, which is how do I develop this prosthesis in a approach that many others may benefit from the switch of the expertise, if you’ll, to different components of the world.
BRIAN KENNY: And he additionally was sensible sufficient to understand which you could’t do that alone. So he was in a position to strike up some useful partnerships. Some of the work they did with Stanford across the knee I believe will get even again to another examples of design considering. Can you describe that a little bit?
SRIKANT DATAR: It’s a nice instance, Brian, and I’ll once more use this instance to level out how the dialogue at school then unfolds. So, the knees, as many components of our physique are, is a tremendous organ as a result of it has two features. When you might be standing, you need it to be utterly secure. And when you find yourself strolling, you need it to have the option to transfer in a approach that enables you to stroll. And because of this you have got this. In the case, we go into in a single axis knee, how do you have got a twin axis knee as a result of that’s what permits you to each stand and be assured standing after which permits you to stroll and be comfy strolling. The subject that comes up once they begin designing it, first, after all, it’s very costly, often the present knee that was there. So they’d a goal of bringing down the price of the knee to a very small quantity, as you already know.
BRIAN KENNY: What was it? Say the quantity as a result of that blew my thoughts really.
SRIKANT DATAR: So, the unique design was to be $25. It ended up being 35 total for this full knee. As you already know, it’s a polymer crammed nylon knee that they ultimately develop. But I believe the fascinating design considering function right here was how they started serious about this not from the purposeful wants of the affected person, however their emotional wants. And once more, when you find yourself designing merchandise, when you can design it each from it reaching a specific operate but in addition satisfying another human want, these merchandise are all the time superb merchandise. So, within the case of the Jaipur Limb, this concept that you’ve got to be assured doing these two actions is what they paid a lot of consideration to within the design. And so there’s a lot of the subsequent phases of design considering you possibly can see play out right here as a result of when you’ve provide you with this concept, so when you’ve received deep empathy, you’ve received this concept about defining the issue accurately that we’ve talked about, you then go into ideation and so they provide you with a lot of those concepts making an attempt to take into consideration, can I do that, can I develop this sort of knee at a low price? But then the subsequent concepts are terrific. Ideation is essential. Brainstorming is the one that you simply’re most acquainted with.
BRIAN KENNY: Sure.
SRIKANT DATAR: But there are different instruments. We undergo eight or 9 instruments within the course on the way you would possibly ideate extra systematically. And then they prototype it. So right here, they’re now making an attempt to perceive what do these sufferers really feel, expertise, how are their emotional wants being met? Do they’ve this sort of confidence there? Because it would carry out very effectively, however when you don’t really feel assured about it, you’re not going to use it in the best way it must be used. So it was that prototyping that they then do earlier than they then start to implement.
BRIAN KENNY: So you introduced up funds earlier. All of this prices cash. Even in the event that they’re in a position to convey the unit price down, which is once more exceptional, I can’t think about when you had been to evaluate prosthesis within the United States to what they’re paying for it right here, it’s received to be a big distinction. How are they in a position to maintain this enterprise over time?
SRIKANT DATAR: So I believe they do two issues. First is on the fee facet, pay nice consideration to supplies. Always paying consideration to sturdiness and high quality. Because once more, if you’re designing this, you don’t need folks to maintain coming again to you. It’s simply a excessive price to them, to the sufferers to maintain coming again. So you need it to be good. So you need low price, however you additionally need excellent high quality. And then you definately actually work exhausting on the method, after which the case goes by means of a variety of locations the place they substitute gauges as an alternative of very difficult molds so as to get the proper mildew so you will get the proper becoming and simplify that expertise as a lot as attainable. So that’s on the fee facet. And on the income facet, and that is a fascinating dialogue that we’ve within the case, is ought to Mr. Metha begin charging prospects who can afford to pay so as to subsidize those that can’t? So how ought to he run this enterprise, if you’ll, in a approach that enables that to occur? He, after all, utterly refuses to try this. He thinks it’ll be a mission. Changes mission will have an effect on how they deal with their sufferers. Again, this complete idea about will I fear about probably the most needy sufferers in the suitable approach doesn’t try this. And then due to this fact depends largely on donations, then making an attempt to construct up a little little bit of a corpus and making an attempt to get to utilizing the land and getting some income from it, the services getting some income from it. But the most important query right here is, ought to he not have charged those that may afford so as to maintain this enterprise? But he didn’t need to try this.
BRIAN KENNY: And it virtually seems like they’ve grow to be form of, and possibly they had been from the beginning, a mission-driven group. This deep function appears to outline the best way that they go about doing their work and the best way that they make their enterprise choices and investments.
SRIKANT DATAR: That is right. And it was fascinating, Brian, once I went to write the case, Mr. Metha requested me to interview a few of the sufferers. I needed to try this anyway, as a result of I needed to get that perspective in spite of everything. Part of this considering is to have these deep insights about sufferers. But he mentioned, “It’ll be good if you can understand from them how we can do better.” And I mentioned, “That’s an amazing question that you’re asking me to ask because they must be so grateful to you for the services you’re providing.” And he mentioned, “Yes, and sometimes they won’t tell me how I can do better.” And he says, “As soon as this organization stops being that patient centric, stops caring for the patients in the way we always should,” again to your level round mission, “I don’t think we’ll be innovative, I don’t think we’ll be able to deliver the services in the way we should deliver.” So that is all the time an important query that we should always ask ourselves and ask, is how can we do higher? And I believed that was such a beautiful message to go away the scholars with on the finish of the dialogue.
BRIAN KENNY: It actually is. Did you have got a possibility to ask him what occurs when he has to step down? Because so typically we discover in these sorts of organizations, the chief turns into the cult of character round which all the things else revolves. And discovering a approach to maintain their empathy and their view of what the hospital must be is a actual problem.
SRIKANT DATAR: It is and he fortuitously nonetheless continues to be very energetic and in order that’s nice. But he has thought a lot about succession. He clearly desires this to be sustained. Fortunately, there are each members of his household and really shut associates who’ve the identical values as he does and can proceed the mission in the best way wherein he did. But after all, everyone knows in these sorts of organizations, the founder performs a essential position. And a lot of what he’s making an attempt to do is to set this up for long-term sustainability. But when you have got anyone who’s as spectacular a person as that, that’s all the time a query that continues to be to be answered.
BRIAN KENNY: Srikant, this has been a fabulous dialog for our 2 hundredth episode. I’ve one final query for you, and that’s, if you’d like our listeners to bear in mind one factor concerning the Jaipur Limb case, what wouldn’t it be?
SRIKANT DATAR: I’d say that design considering and innovation is a course of, as we simply went by means of, Brian, serious about deep empathy and understanding; framing issues, ideating, prototyping, implementing, that we are able to all be taught. And so we are able to all be progressive to deal with the issues that we’ve. And I would really like our listeners to know that that is a learnable talent that requires the suitable mindset. But it’s one which when you do develop it, you continuously follow it and due to this fact provide you with new methods of doing issues that you simply won’t have executed earlier than.
BRIAN KENNY: And I’ll inform our listeners, little inside baseball right here at Harvard Business School, we use design considering fairly a bit. You’ve introduced that device to us, and I’ve used it in my work. I believe it’s fabulous.
SRIKANT DATAR: Yeah, it’s very satisfying. It’s very inspiring, I believe, and really motivating to achieve this.
BRIAN KENNY: SRIKANT DATAR, thanks for becoming a member of me on Cold Call.
SRIKANT DATAR: My nice pleasure, Brian. Thank you for having me.
BRIAN KENNY: If you get pleasure from Cold Call, you would possibly like our different podcasts, After Hours, Climate Rising, Deep Purpose, IdeaCast, Managing the Future of Work, Skydeck, and Women at Work. Find them on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you pay attention. And when you may take a minute to price and evaluate us, we’d be grateful. If you have got any recommendations or simply need to say hiya, we would like to hear from you. Email us at coldcall@hbs.edu. Thanks once more for becoming a member of us. I’m your host, Brian Kenny, and also you’ve been listening to Cold Call, an official podcast of Harvard Business School and a part of the HBR podcast community.
