CURT NICKISCH: Welcome to the HBR IdeaCast from Harvard Business Review. I’m Curt Nickisch.
Many nice corporations got down to rework their companies. They give you new methods, they restructure, perhaps even change industries, go digital. But many occasions, these well-thought-out efforts find yourself falling flat. Why? The firm tradition. If it doesn’t match the brand new technique, you’re toast.
So the apparent factor to do is to alter the tradition, proper? Well, we all know that’s actually laborious. It’s larger than a CEO. It’s not about what’s written down on paper in HR paperwork. It’s not straightforward to outline, a lot much less change.
But immediately’s visitor has studied leaders who have been capable of change their tradition to suit a brand new technique. The takeaway is how they advised tales to bolster that shift, tales that circulated across the workplaces, as a result of plenty of what creates a tradition is the way in which that staff and managers speak to one another about one another, and concerning the firm and what it does. The tales they inform.
Jay Barney is right here to inform us extra. He’s a professor on the Eccles School of Business on the University of Utah, my alma mater. He’s a coauthor, together with Manoel Amorim and Carlos Júlio, of the guide, The Secret of Culture Change: How to Build Authentic Stories That Transform Your Organization. They additionally wrote the HBR article, “Create Stories That Change Your Company Culture”. Jay, glad to have you ever on the present.
JAY BARNEY: I’m very enthusiastic about it.
CURT NICKISCH: You spoke to dozens of CEOs, some who failed at altering their tradition, those that succeeded, and it sounds prefer it’s extra than simply luck or random success.
JAY BARNEY: I wouldn’t low cost that there’s a little little bit of luck and timing in this stuff. There’s all the time of some that goes on. But we discovered most of the enterprise leaders we talked to, lots of them have been CEOs, some have been like plant managers, or division basic managers, or workplace managers of huge workplaces. Some of them have a sample of with the ability to change their group’s cultures that they repeat over time, which means that it’s not simply luck, that there’s really a ability concerned. Our process was to attempt to perceive what these set of expertise have been that enabled them to make tradition change occur.
CURT NICKISCH: Well, it’s actually attention-grabbing as a result of you’ve this very laborious drawback, after which you’ve a quite simple answer. You need to change the tradition, and also you say create tales, which appears straightforward –
JAY BARNEY: Well, let me begin with an instance. My coauthor’s expertise at Telesp, which was, as you stated, a Brazilian telecom that was working in a extremely regulated surroundings, was about to maneuver right into a deregulated surroundings dealing with complete new opponents and complete new applied sciences on the similar time. Also, all that was going to occur directly.
But they’d developed a really, very top-down tradition, aggressively top-down tradition. So a lot so, for instance, that one of many cultural values was that nobody within the group might journey with the CEO in the identical elevator automotive, which is weird, I admit. But nonetheless, it was the image of simply how top-down that group had change into, however profitable.
CURT NICKISCH: So yeah, you’re going from a top-down tradition, which is smart in a world the place you’ve a regulated monopoly basically.
JAY BARNEY: Sure. That’s mainly what it was.
CURT NICKISCH: You’re going to a way more, nonetheless regulated, however aggressive market the place sooner, extra revolutionary corporations might eat your lunch, proper?
JAY BARNEY: Absolutely.
CURT NICKISCH: So, what did Manoel do?
JAY BARNEY: Absolutely – not a slam dunk in any respect, that the monopolist can be the survivor in a way more aggressive market.
CURT NICKISCH: So, what did Manoel do?
JAY BARNEY: Well, the very first thing is, it’s important to change your technique. You can’t be simply apprehensive about addressing authorities outlined targets. You mainly need to a tradition that values customer support, and that values satisfying delighting clients on their telecommunications wants.
So, the precise factor that he did, that constructed the primary story, that is solely the primary of a number of that have been constructed by him, he purchased a brand new expertise, a brand new product that the corporate was popping out with. It was a brand new expertise, it didn’t work very properly.
So he known as the helpline. He received on the road with a part-time employee on the helpline. Now beforehand, by the way in which, in keeping with the outdated tradition, there had been two helplines. One for senior managers within the agency, and one for everybody else. Well, shoppers. So the very first thing he did is, he eradicated the one for senior managers and stated, “Hey, we got problems with technology. We have to go to the helpline that everyone else has to go to.”
So then he’s on this two hour dialog with this younger man, they usually’re nonetheless not having success. So lastly, after two hours he says, “I want to let you know I’m the CEO of the company.” Of course, the man doesn’t imagine him, so it takes a couple of minutes to persuade him. Then what occurs is, Manoel asks, “So what would you have needed to know in order for you to be able to solve my technical problem with this product?” This younger man generates a listing of 14 issues, “This, this, this, we need this. How much of this information do you have access to at this point?” The reply was, “Two or three things.”
Then it will get attention-grabbing. Manoel says, “Would you be willing, with a couple of your colleagues, to come to our next executive committee meeting?,” this can be a senior group within the group, “And explain what those 14 things are, and what needs to be done in order for us to support this new product technology?” Remember, that is deeply hierarchical group and he’s simply flipping it.
CURT NICKISCH: This is skipping just a few ranges, yeah.
JAY BARNEY: Yes. Oh, just some. This man will not be even an worker of Telesp, he’s an outsourced worker. He’s a part-time. It seems, he’s a university scholar. Anyway, he and his colleagues come to this assembly and provides, “Here’s what we need to do. Here’s the problems. Here are the 14 things.” Manoel thanks him. They go away the room.
He turns to the individuals, he says, “So here’s the deal, in two weeks, we’re going to have a plan. We’re going to have it planned and ready to execute. It will help us collect all 14 bits of information we need to support this product. Until we have that plan, we’re going to suspend sales of this product, because a customer-oriented company doesn’t sell a product they can’t support. And then you’re going to present a plan for us about how we’re going to get this information that we need. You’re not going to present it to us, you’re going to present it to these people from the call center we just talked to. So, you’re going to be reporting to the call center employees.”
Two weeks later, positive sufficient, it occurs. They get the data, and the product seems to be very, very profitable. So, it’s all excellent news. But from a cultural viewpoint, it simply actually is a revolution within the mind-set about organizational tradition, about who’s in cost, about what we worth on this firm. It’s about valuing clients and buyer relationships. It’s not about hierarchy, and bowing to the boss, and doing regardless of the boss has to say.
CURT NICKISCH: Gotcha. Now you’ve simply advised this story to me and to our viewers. But in that story, there was no storytelling taking place, proper? There was motion. There was one thing that was performed perhaps in another way. It was efficient as a result of it was strategic. But the place does the storytelling a part of it are available in?
JAY BARNEY: No, it’s attention-grabbing. What you do is, you have interaction in actions, and the actions create tales that different staff share. Now, over time, you might come again and truly inform the story repeatedly. So, that will occur afterward. But whenever you’re within the course of of making the story within the first place, you act, you do issues which are inconsistent with the outdated tradition, however are in keeping with some new tradition. That’s one in every of our standards for being a profitable story. It’s received to interrupt with the previous, with a path to the long run. This instance is only a basic of this, of a transparent break with the previous.
We noticed no examples. We interviewed 60 or so enterprise leaders throughout a number of industries, a number of corporations, et cetera. We noticed no examples, zero, the place profitable tradition change began with the announcement that we have been going to alter our tradition. It’s simply low-cost speak. It’s simply one other factor, right here it comes, CEO desires to alter the tradition. Okay. Everyone says, “Sure, we’ll change the culture, sir.” But, nobody believes that it’s actually a dedication as a result of it’s low-cost speak. It’s straightforward to again off of it.
But motion is way tougher to again down, again off of, stroll again, than phrases. So you act first, the tales then comply with. But these enterprise leaders don’t write down the tales. They don’t plan them out intimately or something like that. They emerge in an genuine method as a result of it replicate their deeply held beliefs about what the group must do. Then these tales begin getting shared. What occurs is, these new tales that assist a brand new tradition exchange the outdated tales that supported the outdated tradition. Then as that diffuses all through the group, that’s how we see tradition change.
CURT NICKISCH: Yeah I imply if you wish to change the story of, “That’s not how we do things around here,” you do it in another way, after which individuals say, “This is how you do things around here.”
JAY BARNEY: That’s precisely proper.
CURT NICKISCH: So it appears essential to not make up the story, however to make the story.
JAY BARNEY: It’s received to be – one in every of our first standards, we studied sufficient of those, so we might really describe tales that appear to truly facilitate cultural change and those who don’t. The first standards is that the story must be genuine to the one who’s constructing the story. For instance, in case your values as a enterprise chief should not customer-oriented and also you say, “We’re going to build a customer-oriented culture,” nobody’s going to imagine you. Employees can scent hypocrisy from miles away. The first standards for that is that these tales need to be actually genuine each to your private values, and in addition to your understanding of the strategic challenges dealing with the group.
CURT NICKISCH: Now, you talked about private values there. How necessary is it to carry the primary particular person into it for organizational leaders?
JAY BARNEY: Oh, yeah. Our second standards is, the enterprise chief has to star within the story. I do know there’s plenty of dialogue within the administration organizational change literature about top-down versus bottom-up. I simply need to say once more, we noticed no examples, zero examples of profitable tradition change that didn’t begin on the prime. That doesn’t imply that these leaders don’t have interaction the remainder of the group, they clearly do. But it begins on the prime, and it begins when that’s genuine, when a enterprise chief behaves in ways in which break with the previous and provides steerage to a brand new tradition, and that particular person stars of their story. Now different individuals will likely be there. So Manoel starred the story at Telesp, however the entire government workforce was there. Those are the individuals who create the tales. They inform the tales.
CURT NICKISCH: Now, in case you are imagined to characteristic your self in your tales, prefer it or not, as an organizational chief, you’re a character within the story.
JAY BARNEY: Absolutely.
CURT NICKISCH: Can that come off like bragging-
JAY BARNEY: Sure.
CURT NICKISCH: That goes to harm your efforts?
JAY BARNEY: No, that’s an amazing query. There’s a query of, “How can I star in my story and still be humble and open?” Well, there’s a few issues to understand this. The first is, you’re a enterprise chief. People are watching what you do, in depth, they usually do this whether or not you need them to or not. So you might be already starring within the story. The query is, what story are you going to construct. The second factor is, it’s important to additionally perceive, the tradition change course of begins on the prime. It’s necessary that they diffuse all through the group.
The method that occurs is, a enterprise chief builds a pair extra tales. Because one story, persons are nonetheless cautious, “Is this real or not?” But you do two or three of those actually radical issues, then individuals begin getting the thought. Then different individuals within the group begin feeling empowered by the chance that they might construct their very own tales. Sometimes that occurs with different senior managers and enterprise leaders within the group. By the way in which, as a enterprise chief, you possibly can see that. You can go to a different enterprise chief and say, “Listen, I’d such as you to do one thing that builds a narrative that’s in keeping with the brand new tradition.
Now, I can’t let you know what that story is as a result of it must be genuine to you. But, I can see that to occur. Let me provide you with one other actually nice instance of this. There’s an organization, really right here in Utah, known as Traeger. You know Traeger Grills? I’m positive you do.
The one who was operating Traeger, Jeremy Andrus, was an investor in Traeger for some time, grew to become satisfied that Traeger had the potential for disrupting what was really a really mature market, which is the outside cooking market, barbecues, and people who smoke, and issues. But the group that he inherited had a very poisonous tradition. He mainly closed up the group the place it was and moved it right here to Utah. Basically, constructed a brand new tradition from scratch. One of the vital values of this new tradition, he talked about it, he tried to point out in his personal habits, construct tales round, needed to do with customer support. There was no restrict on customer support.
He comes into work a Monday, and his gross sales VP is available in and says, “Did you hear what Rob did over the weekend?” “Who’s Rob?” “Well, Rob’s this first line employee. He has some responsibilities, but he is not a senior manager. He’s just a guy in the office working hard, doing his thing.”
Apparently, Rob in some way received a cellphone name from a buyer, a Traeger buyer in Seattle. The buyer, his Traeger grill will not be working. Now, this buyer was a gross sales supervisor at a Costco up within the Seattle space. Costco, in fact, is a vital buyer for Traeger. So Rob listens to the cellphone name and diagnoses the issue, goes to the workplace, picks up the half that’s wanted, will get on an airplane, flies to Seattle, fixes the machine with an element, helps the man season his brisket, will get again on the airplane, flies residence.
He comes into work on Monday morning, and it’s no massive deal. He’s simply sitting at his laptop doing his work.
Well, in fact the gross sales supervisor at that Costco tells his boss, who’s the Costco retailer supervisor, what Traeger did, what Rob did. That man then calls the top service provider at Costco company, who then calls the VP of gross sales at Traeger, who then tells the CEO of Traeger, “Did you know what your guy did? This is awesome. This is unbelievable level of quality of service.” Jeremy Andrus’ response was, “Yes, the culture is happening.” This is a man who’s constructing his personal tales on his personal.
CURT NICKISCH: For many corporations, tradition is the place they’re, how individuals work collectively. And if you happen to’re speaking about tales circulating on the water cooler and folks passing these tales on, I ponder, in a post-COVID world, and the place there’s far more working remotely, working from residence, far more digital work, how that impacts the efficacy of those tales, and simply the distribution of those tales.
JAY BARNEY: I not too long ago got here from a gathering with a gaggle of managers at a widely known consulting agency, and I used to be simply listening. I used to be listening to the CEOs and different senior managers speak concerning the challenges they’re dealing with. I got here away saying, “What these people were saying was, ‘Our organizational cultures are in tatters. They are in tatters, they’re falling apart.’” For good causes, I’m not saying I’m not arguing in opposition to going residence throughout COVID. Obviously, that was a requirement.
But two issues are very troublesome the place everybody’s working from residence. The very first thing is, it’s very laborious to construct new tales as a result of new tales are created when teams of people confront conditions that really take a look at their outdated values. So it’s very laborious to construct new tales, and it’s very laborious to speak these tales.
In Zoom, and associated applied sciences whereas offering a type of communication, remains to be a cool medium. We can’t learn the physique language. The image we see is 2 inches sq. in a big assembly. We don’t know the context. People are interrupting one another as a result of they’ll’t learn the physique language. Then they’re dropping off and approaching, and the canine’s operating by.
All this stuff make it troublesome. It makes it a cool medium, makes it troublesome to get the actually emotion and have an effect on that must be related to telling these tales which are actually profound in some ways. So between these two issues, I believe plenty of corporations now are calling individuals again in, saying, “It’s time to get back together,” and there’s resistance to try this. But one of many causes to consider the right way to carry them in is to recreate the cultures which are in tatters.
CURT NICKISCH: Now you talked concerning the have an effect on not coming throughout in video convention calls, as an illustration. One of the suggestions that got here out of your analysis is that organizational leaders should be theatrical.
JAY BARNEY: Yeah. It’s wonderful, isn’t it? I believe you’ve stated it somewhat stronger than I’d say it. It seems that most of the tradition change tales that have been created had a really theatrical aspect to them. That’s how I’d say it. Not all of them. What is theater? It varies loads. But let me provide you with a very brief instance of 1. This is one in every of my very favourite tales within the guide. This is by a good friend of mine named Jeff Rodek, who was the CEO of Hyperion just a few years in the past. This is throughout a time when the corporate had been doing pretty properly and there was an enormous downturn available in the market. They found that they actually didn’t have a method that was viable long-term.
He develops the brand new technique in seek the advice of with the consulting agency. They put collectively a brand new technique, they usually’re going to have an enormous assembly among the many prime administration workforce to speak concerning the technique and its implications, one in every of which goes to be a reasonably important layoff. So they’re preparing to try this assembly and it seems that their planning individuals had already booked a gathering room at a really, very fancy lodge in San Francisco. And Jeff says, “We cannot have a meeting to decide to lay off a very large percentage of our employees at that hotel, it’s just not right.” His assistant says, “Yeah, we’ve already paid for the hotel.” So he says, “We’re going to change the meeting.”
So everybody exhibits as much as the assembly, they usually come into the eating room. It’s precisely what you’d anticipate, it’s all fancy China and stemware. Then they sit down for dinner, and the primary course is rolls and water, bread and water. Then the second course comes out, and it’s additionally simply bread and water. Then the third course, it’s simply bread and water. Then he stands up and says, “Listen, we don’t deserve to celebrate with a fancy dinner here. We only deserve bread and water.”
That is so theatrical, it’s wonderful. Talks concerning the technique then, and the fee, and ends the assembly by saying, “I’m going to schedule this meeting room for one year from now, and we’re going to have a real celebratory before dinner. We’re going to deserve it, because tonight all we deserve is bread and water.” I assure there’s not an individual in that room who forgets that have due to the theatricality.
CURT NICKISCH: We know the outdated saying, hearts and minds. How do you inform tales? How do you not inform tales? How do you create tales that attraction to each? Because the tales will go on being advised.
JAY BARNEY: Absolutely, they usually evolve too. But we’ll begin with the top. We had heads and hearts, is how we use it within the language. But ahearts and minds factor. That hearkens again to the Vietnam, so I’m somewhat apprehensive about that. Show my age somewhat bit.
CURT NICKISCH: Right. Right. Right. No, it does have that army connotation.
JAY BARNEY: It does. Get the hearts and minds of the individuals, so we use heads and the hearts.
CURT NICKISCH: Heads and hearts. Okay.
JAY BARNEY: That’s okay. We begin with heads. The purpose we are saying that’s that, if there’s not a enterprise case for tradition change, then you shouldn’t have interaction in tradition change. If a enterprise chief engages in tradition change and not using a sturdy enterprise case, with out the notion that it’s essential change your tradition to implement your technique, then it’s an ego journey. Think of what you’re saying, “I want to change the culture so that everyone’s values are like my values.” Seriously? That’s probably the most egotistical factor conceivable. That’s not going to work.
So it’s important to begin with a enterprise case, and it must be very tight, and it must be, “Our old strategy was X. Our new strategy is Y, and our culture needs to change to Y or we’re not going to be successful,” and the economics should be compelling.
However, tradition change is about altering individuals’s sense of goal at work, their course, their sense of id, how they work together with one another, very, very private stuff. One purpose tradition change is so laborious is as a result of it requires us to alter some fundamental assumptions about who we’re at work and the way we work with one another. It’s like change resistance on steroids. We additionally see that plenty of these tales that have been constructed additionally attraction to what they’ll name the higher angels of our nature. They went past simply, “Yeah, we’re here to make more money and drive these other people away.” Although that’s a part of it, to beat the competitors. I received it.
But it’s additionally – and in doing so, we’re going to fulfill our clients. We’re going to please our clients greater than they’ve been delighted up to now. We’re going to present our staff an expertise that they’ve by no means had earlier than of being concerned in creating this new enterprise, and on, and on. So these issues attraction to the guts. If it’s simply coronary heart, we didn’t see any examples of profitable tradition change that was nearly, “Let’s just be better towards each other.” Bill and Ted, “Let’s just be excellent towards each other.” It seems, to not be a compelling organizational change story. But you probably have head and coronary heart, then there’s an excellent likelihood you’ll achieve success.
CURT NICKISCH: Is there something it’s essential do to unfold the tales? It makes me consider USAA, the insurance coverage firm. They have one thing that they do known as mission moments the place, initially of conferences, they may cease and speak about a customer-
JAY BARNEY: Absolutely.
CURT NICKISCH: Their historical past with an organization that serves army relations, so that they’ll speak about that particular person’s service, and typically inform tales of fixing that buyer’s wants. You know, speak about a good way to maintain telling tales after which keep grounded in what you do as an organization. But what do you suggest for telling the tales in casual methods? Or, do you simply let tales tackle the lifetime of their very own?
JAY BARNEY: No, we’re going to do each. In the start, when a narrative is advised, they unfold like wildfire by a company. Within a day, everybody within the firm is aware of what’s happening. Interestingly sufficient, for individuals who perceive why we have to change the tradition to align with the technique, these staff take pleasure in these tales. They stated, “Look what our CEO is doing, this is so cool. He’s actually taking our organization and moving it in the way it needs to happen.”
So to start with, our discovering means that, attention-grabbing sufficient, don’t be too aggressive to start with about having a extra express communication coverage as a result of that may be a self-serving, somewhat advertising happening. That stated, in some unspecified time in the future, it’s important to begin saying, “Okay.” Usually, it’s when another tales are additionally being constructed within the group which are additionally tradition altering in nature.
You begin searching for methods to speak these by formal channels. You have on-line magazines, and chat rooms, and people issues. It’s nice if you may get the press concerned. Again, that’s to not speak about you because the enterprise chief, however to speak concerning the tradition change.
So, let it diffuse by itself. By the way in which, shortly thereafter, construct one other story so that you get that one backed up. After two or three of these tales that you simply’ve constructed, you proceed to construct them as properly over time, then others will begin constructing, after which you possibly can go to a extra formal communication mannequin.
CURT NICKISCH: Yeah. Well, the earlier tradition was made up of a number of tales too, so it’s important to inform –
JAY BARNEY: That’s right. You’re going to need to deconstruct the outdated one. Actually, that’s the mistaken language. It’s delicate as a result of one query we’re requested, and it’s a completely reliable query is: Lots of people be part of an organization as a result of they appreciated the outdated tradition, they chose into it, they usually’re really actually good at it.
Now you’re placing a brand new technique in place that requires a brand new tradition. Isn’t that bait and swap? Isn’t that unfair? The reply is, “Yeah, it is.” Some individuals who have been deeply loyal and deeply dedicated to the group’s outdated tradition can really feel very a lot disenfranchised. You know why? Because they’re being disenfranchised. That’s simply it.
And a few of these could be a enterprise chief’s good buddies, they are often functionally very competent. But if the strategic evaluation is right, that we have now to alter the technique, then it follows that we have now to alter the tradition. Failure to do that may be deeply problematic. So, as a enterprise chief, I don’t need to lose that purposeful experience. I don’t need to lose that loyalty. I’m going to go to these individuals and attempt to carry them into the fold. But if they can’t or is not going to make the transition to the brand new tradition, they could need to be let go.
CURT NICKISCH: If they do, you inform these tales and rejoice them.
JAY BARNEY: Exactly. Total win.
CURT NICKISCH: Can leaders at any degree do that?
JAY BARNEY: The reply might be sure. But our expertise… I don’t need to go too far past the information. Our estimate is that, you probably have 50 or so people who find themselves working for you, you’ve an organizational tradition, whether or not you already know it or not. So you possibly can take duty for altering that tradition. 50 or so, as a result of at that time individuals could also be dispersed, they could not see one another on a regular basis. What occurs is, tradition is the management mechanism that fills within the blanks when insurance policies and procedures don’t speak about what must be performed. As a company will get bigger and bigger, then you definitely begin seeing tradition changing into extra necessary.
CURT NICKISCH: You talked about, over time. How have you learnt whenever you’re performed? How have you learnt when the tradition has been shifted?
JAY BARNEY: In an necessary sense, you’re not ever performed as a result of cultures… You both spend money on a tradition or it drifts and dissipates. People assume, “Well, maybe this culture is not that important.” So there’s a sense through which it’s important to regularly spend money on tales that construct your tradition, that proceed to bolster the technique.
Besides that, methods additionally change over time, context shifts, so you could have to alter your tradition, nice tune it somewhat bit. If you start a tradition change course of… I’ve seen this, I received’t identify corporations, however a few years in the past I used to be contacted by a agency that was competing in opposition to a really revolutionary competitor. This specific agency was recognized, that is in Silicon Valley, all through the Valley as being threat averse.
Its competitor, after they got here up with new expertise that didn’t work, they noticed that as a possibility to study. This firm, when the product didn’t work, they handled as a possibility to search out out who was accountable so they might hearth them. Well, guess what? They weren’t revolutionary in any respect.
So they got here to me and stated, “We’d like you to help us change our organizational culture from being…” It begins with, “We did a six-month study and we found out we have a risk-adverse culture.” Six months. This is a three-minute dialog with any worker. It’s not a really sophisticated drawback.
Another aspect word, we noticed no, zero, profitable tradition change efforts that started with a examine of the present tradition. None. That’s a method of normally avoiding tradition change. So they did this examine for six months. They stated they have been threat averse, they usually stated, “What we’d like you to do is come in here, and we’d like you to help us get rid of our old culture, and build this new culture, and we’d like this done in six weeks.”
So in six weeks, they have been going to be performed. I distanced myself from that chance. The complete idea was flawed as a result of tradition change is an ongoing course of that you simply regularly construct new tales. It’s not simply you that builds the brand new tales, staff all through the group construct their very own tales, they usually proceed to strengthen and rejuvenate the tradition of the group. Not a lot an finish level.
CURT NICKISCH: Jay, this has been actually fascinating. And you’ve given a path ahead by a very difficult drawback for a lot of many corporations in a method that may carry them to a contented ending.
JAY BARNEY: I hope so.
CURT NICKISCH: So, thanks for approaching the present to speak about it.
JAY BARNEY: Thank you very a lot.
CURT NICKISCH: That’s Jay Barney, professor on the Eccles School of Business on the University of Utah. He cowrote the brand new guide, The Secret of Culture Change: How to Build Authentic Stories That Transform Your Organization, in addition to the HBR article, “Create Stories That Change Your Company Culture.”
And we have now extra episodes and extra podcasts that can assist you handle your workforce, your group, and your profession. Find them at hbr.org/podcasts or search HBR on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you pay attention.
This episode was produced by Mary Dooe. We get technical assist from Rob Eckhardt. Our audio product supervisor is Ian Fox, and Hannah Bates is our audio manufacturing assistant. Thanks for listening to the HBR IdeaCast. We’ll be again with a brand new episode on Tuesday. I’m Curt Nickisch.
