BRIAN KENNY: On July eleventh, 2023, the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations convened a listening to on a proposed merger of the PGA Tour and its upstart rival, the LIV Golf tour. Golf could also be a genial sport, however there was nothing cordial concerning the demeanor of the committee members who teed off on PGA Tour executives for over three hours, firing query as in expressing their considerations concerning the configuration of the deal and its implications on the worldwide stage. It’s a listening to that simply weeks earlier would’ve been unimaginable as a result of since its launch in 2022, the LIV tour was vilified by the PGA Tour because the avowed enemy of golf, the beneficiary of a wealthy, however ruthless international regime looking for to cleanse its repute by affiliation with the game. The PGA Tour was the keeper of the flame, sworn to uphold the integrity of the traditional however honorable sport. One that has remained just about unchanged for the reason that guidelines of golf had been first formalized in Lieth, Scotland in 1744, however as we frequently see, disruption occurs if you least count on it. Today on Cold Call, we’ve invited Professor Alex MacKay to debate his case titled, “LIV Golf.” I’m your host, Brian Kenny, and you’re listening to Cold Call on the HBR Podcast Network. Alex MacKay’s Research focuses on issues of competitors, together with pricing, demand, and market construction. And right this moment we’re right here to speak a couple of topic close to and expensive to my coronary heart, which is golf. Alex, thanks for becoming a member of me.

ALEX MACKAY: Brian, it’s a pleasure to be right here.

BRIAN KENNY: I used to be very excited once I heard that you simply had been scripting this case as a result of I’m a golfer. I actually love the sport and like anyone who follows golf, this was a tremendous sequence of occasions that began again in 2022 and continues to unfold in actually sudden methods. So I believe individuals will love listening to extra about this as a case of disruptive innovation inside an present sports activities league, but in addition among the drama that surrounds it and among the politics. So thanks for being right here to speak about it.

ALEX MACKAY: Yeah, it’s been very thrilling for positive.

BRIAN KENNY: So why don’t we simply begin by asking you what the central problem is within the case and what your Cold Call is to start out the dialogue at school?

ALEX MACKAY: I’ll simply present a bit little bit of background. This case is about on the finish of 2022. So LIV Golf had simply accomplished its first season and straight away when it launched in June, issues obtained very contentious between LIV Golf and the PGA Tour. Immediately, some gamers from the PGA Tour that participated in LIV had been suspended, and gamers that form of had been on either side of this divide had been saying very contentious issues to one another. In August, LIV Golf really launched an antitrust lawsuit towards the PGA Tour, which accused them of committing anti-competitive practices that had been authorized violations. And in September, the PGA Tour filed a countersuit. The DOJ stated it was going to research the actions the PGA Tour had taken towards LIV Golf. So it was a really heated time, and the important thing query we tackle at school is or we kick issues off with is, ought to the PGA Tour proceed to combat LIV Golf or ought to it attempt to cooperate? Now, we’ve had an replace since then on what the PGA Tour has tried to do, and I believe it’s nonetheless beneficial to consider that query in gentle of the adjustments within the response of the gamers. But the second query we get to, and I believe it’s nonetheless crucial to consider from a enterprise viewpoint, is ought to the PGA Tour have achieved something in another way? And you possibly can consider that in gentle of what they did in 2022, however you may also consider that main as much as 2022 way back to 2019, 2015, and even earlier than that. How did the PGA Tour enable the entry of LIV to occur, and did they take the precise actions in response?

BRIAN KENNY: Yeah. Those are nice questions and we’ll contact on a few of that. Why did you determine to put in writing this case?

ALEX MACKAY: So I educate a course on competitors, antitrust and regulation, and my analysis covers these similar themes. So I’m very enthusiastic about questions on market energy when a big agency has the flexibility to exert affect over its clients and different market members. And this case with the PGA Tour and LIV Golf is definitely an incredible instance of that. We have a brand new entrant in a market with a big established competitor, so we are able to consider the responses by this massive established competitor, and particularly, the authorized limits of the habits as established by antitrust regulation.

BRIAN KENNY: Yeah, I imply, as I learn the case, I used to be excited about the truth that it appears to me like most sports activities leagues are monopolistic, the NFL, the Major League baseball. What was the L scape in golf earlier than LIV got here round?

ALEX MACKAY: Before LIV, the PGA Tour was the dominant skilled golf tour, globally. The second tour was the European tour, which Rory McIlroy had at one level referred to as a stepping stone to the PGA Tour. So that’s how gamers typically seen the competitors, the completely different excursions. And so there have been numerous different excursions, however none fairly the dimensions of the PGA Tour. Now, there are additionally the 4 main occasions, and it’s necessary to differentiate these as a result of the 4 main golf tournaments are literally run independently from the PGA Tour, and that distinction is definitely a giant issue within the combat between LIV and the PGA Tour, as I’m positive we’ll get to. So these 4 occasions are run independently, however for essentially the most half, the highest skilled golfers are affiliated with the PGA Tour and then additionally play within the 4 majors.

BRIAN KENNY: Okay, so there’s a little bit of, there’s co-opetition there, I suppose is one technique to describe it.

ALEX MACKAY: Yes, precisely.

BRIAN KENNY: Okay. So the PGA Tour, I believe considerably surprisingly, is a nonprofit group. How do they make their cash? What’s their enterprise mannequin?

ALEX MACKAY: So they function about 40 weekly occasions and together with the primary tour, additionally they have the developmental excursions. They primarily generate income via media rights and by promoting sponsorships for particular person tournaments. So for instance, in 2020, they signed a 9 12 months 6.3 billion greenback take care of CBS and NBC to broadcast roughly 30 of their foremost occasions. And additionally they have streaming offers and different options of the media rights, and along with the sponsorship, all that provides as much as a great deal of cash. In 2019, they reported 1.5 billion {dollars} of income.

BRIAN KENNY: But how do they keep their nonprofit standing?

ALEX MACKAY: Yeah, in order that’s an attention-grabbing query. Of the 1.5 billion {dollars}, about 500 million is paid out to gamers by way of occasions and by way of prize cash. And there’s different cash that’s given to staff of the PGA Tour, however they really made about 70 million {dollars} in web earnings. They can keep their nonprofit standing as a result of they elevate a very good deal for charity. So a great deal of the cash they elevate does go to charity. In 2019, it was about 204 million. And for sports activities leagues, they’ll register as a nonprofit if additionally they form of have a mission assertion that promotes a typical curiosity. And so that is one thing that lots of the leagues had at one level. So the Major League Baseball and the NFL had been at one level nonprofits, however they gave these up in 2007 and 2015 as a result of a key distinction is that they shouldn’t be participating within the common enterprise of a form to generate revenue. And there’s a bit little bit of a tremendous line there between are they producing revenue or are they selling the widespread curiosity of a sport?

BRIAN KENNY: Yeah. I need to discuss a bit bit concerning the form of spirit of competitors on the PGA tour and skilled golf. If you take a look at different sports activities leagues, they’re all comprised of groups and it’s individuals enjoying collectively to perform one thing. Golf is likely one of the solely sports activities the place you’re enjoying as an unbiased agent, I suppose, for lack of a greater phrase. And there’s no farm league per se. There are golfers who come up via the faculty circuit. There are golfers who simply try it on their very own. How do you qualify to get on the PGA Tour?

ALEX MACKAY: On the PGA Tour, the gamers are all unbiased contractors that form of should make the case that needs to be on the tour. And the primary approach they do it’s simply by enjoying actually wonderful golf. So they’ll play on these developmental excursions the PGA Tour runs, and they’ll get developmental factors. And sooner or later, when you hit a sure threshold, you qualify for the tour. Now, qualifying for the tour isn’t form of the top although. The PGA Tour maintains a rating record for its gamers based mostly on the factors they’ve gathered. And that rating record form of determines which gamers enter every of the PGA excursions occasions. So you may be on the tour, however you could not qualify for the sphere for a selected occasion, particularly essentially the most prestigious ones in the event you don’t place excessive sufficient on that rating record.

BRIAN KENNY: So it’s like it’s a meritocracy by definition, and your commitments there don’t finish as a participant. You’re liable for financing your journey, and in the event you’ve obtained coaches, you’ve obtained to pay your individual workforce, and you even have obligations to the tour itself. Can you discuss a bit bit about that?

ALEX MACKAY: It may simply value the gamers over 100 thousand {dollars} for gear coaching, journey, that form of factor. If you don’t win any prize cash over the course of the 12 months, you may really lose cash as a PGA Tour participant, a minimum of till 2022 when the PGA Tour applied some adjustments alongside these traces. Now, as a member to take care of your membership, you’re additionally required to take part in a sure variety of occasions, sometimes a minimum of 15 occasions. And you’re additionally prohibited from enjoying in different golf tournaments or showing on any golf broadcast except you’ve a launch from the commissioner of the PGA Tour.

BRIAN KENNY: And all of this turns into actually related after we discuss concerning the LIV tour and what it means to be a participant on the LIV tour, which is absolutely completely different than on the PGA Tour. So we’re going to get to that in a minute. Before we do, I wished to speak a bit bit about antitrust legal guidelines and how they apply to skilled sports activities leagues, as a result of that basically is on the coronary heart of what’s occurring between these two entities.

ALEX MACKAY: And really, for essentially the most half, antitrust legal guidelines apply to skilled sports activities leagues, identical to every other group. If you concentrate on skilled soccer, basketball, and hockey leagues, they include unbiased groups which might be beneath separate possession. Now, the one exception right here is Major League Baseball, which has its personal antitrust exemption that’s particularly carved out for that league. What’s occurred for the opposite sports activities although, is that they have acquired particular exemptions. One of them is to barter for media rights. So that’s why the NFL can collectively cut price for media rights. And the opposite is as a result of the gamers within the NFL are unionized, the NFL can act as a single entity when negotiating with these gamers. So as a result of the gamers in these leagues are unionized, and as a result of the particular media rights deal, they’ll form of do these items collectively. But apart from that, in the event that they do every other actions that the antitrust regulation would think about suspect they might be topic to that regulation.

BRIAN KENNY: Okay. The PGA Tour although, is structured in another way. There’s no unionization there.

ALEX MACKAY: Right, so there’s no unionization of the gamers. And so it raises some questions as to what meaning for the setting of the wages of those gamers, and additionally with respect to their potential to take part in different excursions.

BRIAN KENNY: Yeah. So let’s discuss concerning the LIV tour now. Who’s concerned? How did it come to be? What’s the setup there?

ALEX MACKAY: Yeah, so it’s form of the confluence of those two completely different forces that got here collectively to offer rise to the LIV Golf tour. The first is that there was an investor group, primarily led by, because it seems, funding from Saudi Arabia that had been seeking to put money into golf for numerous years, beginning way back to 2020. And that they had been approaching gamers with potential curiosity. They had really approached the European Tour a couple of potential partnership, and ultimately by say, the center of 2021, that they had landed numerous huge title gamers from the PGA Tour that had dedicated to take part of their league. Phil Mickelson, Brooks Koepka, Dustin Johnson had been three of the largest names that they had gotten. The different issue was Greg Norman, who was a well-known skilled golfer, and he had really tried to start out an alternate league again within the nineties. And so for many years, Norman had had complaints towards the PGA Tour, the way it operated, what kind of say it gave to the gamers and their compensation. And he hoped {that a} new golf league would have the ability to provide form of higher advantages to the gamers.

BRIAN KENNY: Okay. And the confrontation between Greg Norman and the PGA Tour having been occurring for fairly a while, it was very public.

ALEX MACKAY: That’s appropriate, sure.

BRIAN KENNY: How did the LIV tour entice individuals like Phil Mickelson and Brooks Koepka? Those are huge names.

ALEX MACKAY: So the concept Norman had and the tour had, was that we are able to entice among the greatest names by providing them higher compensation. And this got here primarily in two types. One was they had been going to supply higher payouts for every event. And so after they initially launched, they supplied report setting purses, which is just like the mixed prize cash from a event of 25 million {dollars} per occasion. And along with this prize cash, they supplied these golfers assured contracts, which is one thing that gamers on the PGA Tour didn’t get in any approach. And it was reported that Dustin Johnson, for instance, was supplied a four-year contract of round $125 million.

BRIAN KENNY: Wow.

ALEX MACKAY: So no matter how he carried out on the tour, he was going to be making a very good amount of cash.

BRIAN KENNY: And simply in order that if our listeners don’t know the typical purse on the PGA tour, they’re huge, it’s not small cash, however it’s singles of hundreds of thousands. It may be 3 million. That could be a giant purse. So what the LIV tour is doing is simply throwing gobs of cash within the gamers instructions.

ALEX MACKAY: That’s appropriate. So yeah, the mixed purse, a bit greater, however a person participant would possibly win one thing like between one and $3 million for profitable a event. But the best way that golf works is, except you’re Tiger Woods, you’re not profitable a number of occasions yearly. And so you possibly can see these numbers and you may calculate, properly, if I received each occasion, I might make some huge cash, however in follow, that’s not the way it occurs. And in reality, there are 200 plus golfers on the tour. Some of them lose cash as we mentioned earlier.

BRIAN KENNY: And many golfers like Tiger Woods and Rory McIlroy have endorsement offers with manufacturers that additionally increase that. In truth, they in all probability earn more money from these offers than they do from really enjoying golf. So there’s an entire bunch of golfers on the market which might be actually simply struggling to win and to make an affordable wage contemplating all their bills. There’s additionally another key variations between the 2 excursions, simply by way of the aggressive features and the precise play of the sport. Can you speak about that?

ALEX MACKAY: Yeah. So the opposite key variations had been round innovation within the sport of golf. So for essentially the most half, golf hadn’t modified and LIV Golf thought that they might boost the occasions and make them extra attention-grabbing to a broader viewers. So one key change is that they solely play three days of golf, three rounds, which is 54 holes in comparison with the standard 72 gap course, and that’s really the place the title LIV comes from. LIV is in Roman numerals, the quantity for 54. So they thought this is able to be extra enticing each to the viewers, but in addition to the gamers as properly, as a result of they solely needed to compete for 3 days. They supplied 14 tournaments with extra flexibility. So as a substitute of getting 4 main tournaments or say six huge occasions and having to take part in a bunch of smaller occasions, they had been saying, all of those occasions are alternatives so that you can earn some huge cash. You don’t should play in each single occasion, however you’re going to have that flexibility to play in these high-end occasions. And in reality, that was a key think about recruiting numerous the gamers who stated, this flexibility on the tour is one thing that I get pleasure from. Finally, with respect to innovation, they adopted the slogan of golf, however louder. So that they had another issues the place they performed music on among the golf programs. They allowed gamers to play the event in shorts, which was a giant deal. That was unparalleled. And the occasions had been achieved with what’s referred to as a shotgun begin system, which suggests they line up gamers on each gap and everybody begins on the similar time, and so there’s no actual lifeless time on sure holes. The approach the PGA Tour operates is everybody begins on gap one and progresses their approach via 18.

BRIAN KENNY: And there’s no cuts, which actually will get to the guts of, on the PGA Tour, in the event you don’t play properly, you don’t get to play on the weekend, you don’t have any shot at profitable the event, however on the LIV tour, everyone will get to play.

ALEX MACKAY: That’s proper. There’s additionally one other component they added was a workforce occasion. So they thought this was an necessary component from a advertising perspective as they grouped gamers of 4 into groups, and in reality, your workforce may win the occasion. And what that additionally did is that gave the chance for gamers to earn some cash, even when they didn’t have one of the best day on the golf course.

BRIAN KENNY: So they’re spending a number of cash to innovate and to compensate gamers and entice gamers to their tour. How are they going to generate income?

ALEX MACKAY: So the hope was that they might generate income via two key avenues. The first is form of a conventional media rights angle that each one sports activities leagues take part in. And in reality, in January of this 12 months, they did signal a media rights deal. The different angle was additionally new to golf and was adopted from the Formula One idea, which was that every of those groups may have separate house owners. And the concept was that after LIV Golf grew in recognition, the game and the league would promote the possession rights for these groups off to different buyers who need to make investments with them and generate income that approach. And that is once more, the way it’s achieved in Formula One. Internally, LIV Golf had reportedly valued these groups as by way of better than 100 million {dollars} apiece.

BRIAN KENNY: Wow. So let’s speak about how the PGA Tour reacted to LIV. They weren’t going to take this mendacity down. How did the commissioner react to this and how did the gamers react?

ALEX MACKAY: Yeah, so to begin with, the second that the gamers hit their first tee shot off the primary LIV Golf occasion in England, the commissioner Jay Monahan suspended all of the gamers taking part within the occasion from the PGA Tour, successfully giving them what gave the impression to be a lifetime ban. And he continued to droop gamers that left the PGA Tour for LIV all through the summer season. The PGA Tour, additionally, as a way to hold gamers and form of forestall them from being drawn to the cash supplied by LIV, elevated the payouts of their occasions. So he introduced that there could be eight elevated tournaments with payouts of as much as 25 million. So matching LIV Golf’s occasion. Also, he had applied this program referred to as the Player Impact Program that successfully rewarded the highest 10 gamers for media consideration and issues like that. In truth, 5 of the highest 10 gamers left the PGA Tour for LIV Golf. But what the commissioner did in the summertime is, he prolonged that program. He stated, we’re going to pay out a complete of 100 million {dollars} to gamers that get essentially the most media consideration and providing it even to extra gamers. And lastly, what the commissioner additionally did, is he applied assured payouts for taking part gamers on the tour. So he assured a minimum of $500,000 for each member who participated on the tour. So these adjustments in compensation had been met form of with a variety of curiosity by the opposite facet, as a result of initially when LIV had launched this program, they had been getting a variety of flak for assured contracts. Tiger Woods stated one thing alongside the traces of what are the incentives for the gamers to compete if they’ve assured cash?

BRIAN KENNY: Of course. Yeah. Well, and the opposite factor the commissioner did too, I believe midway via the season introduced that there have been sure occasions the place gamers could be assured to play via the weekend. Again, these are the highest most seen gamers, and that was an effort to fulfill the sponsors, however successfully getting rid of the reduce, which LIV had additionally achieved.

ALEX MACKAY: And so the gamers that had left for LIV form of reacted to this and Lee Westwood stated, I snigger at what the PGA Tour gamers have provide you with. It’s only a copy of what LIV is doing. Phil Mickelson stated with a smirk, it’s nice that they magically discovered a pair hundred million. That’s superior.

BRIAN KENNY: Phil’s all the time obtained a smirk.

ALEX MACKAY: So there’s these adjustments which might be taking place by way of the character of the enterprise, however on the similar time, it’s very private. The individuals on the PGA Tour had been criticizing LIV Golf and criticizing notably the gamers. Tiger Woods stated that gamers who joined LIV Golf stated they turned their backs on the tour. Rory McIlroy, who was the primary golfer on the time, stated, “There’s no room in the golf world for LIV Golf. If LIV went away tomorrow, I’d be super happy.” And he stated that the habits of the gamers was duplicitous, and these tensions simply continued to escalate. It was reported that gamers misplaced friendships. A variety of these golfers had been good pals with one another, and they simply couldn’t perceive the way you would possibly go away for LIV Golf. And the individuals who left for LIV Golf would possibly say, properly, how may you not perceive what I’m doing?

BRIAN KENNY: Yeah. And I might say as a fan, talking as a fan, the followers I believe had been torn about this too. Some followers had been like, yeah, good for the LIV tour. Other followers had been like, no, I’m fully devoted to the PGA Tour. So there have been undoubtedly divides actually throughout the entire spectrum of the sport, which makes what occurred subsequent, completely astonishing, which was on June sixth when Jay Monahan of the PGA Tour introduced that the PGA Tour was going to merge with the LIV tour. Can you discuss a bit bit about that improvement and what that deal appeared like?

ALEX MACKAY: Leading into this announcement, there are a few issues that had been taking place within the first half of 2023. I imply, some gamers had been expressing concern about the truth that golf was tearing itself aside, however on the similar time, different individuals had been very adamant that you simply needed to choose a facet. And Monahan had stated, they’ve gone down their path, we’ve gone down ours. There’s no reconciliation. So it was fairly clear that a minimum of from the highest, there was no likelihood of reconciliation. So this announcement was a significant shock. Leading as much as it, I discussed that LIV Golf had secured a media rights deal, and what had occurred was the gamers had participated in numerous the most important tournaments, and in reality, the LIV Golf gamers had performed very properly. In the Masters, Koepka and Phil Mickelson tied for second successfully, and a variety of the LIV Golf gamers felt vindicated by their high quality of competitors and then really Koepka received the PGA Championship. And so I believe from a query of, is LIV Golf going to have a excessive commonplace of the sport? They answered a variety of these questions within the first half of 2023. So I believe that’s necessary background to this announcement that occurred subsequent, as a result of I believe there have been in all probability some individuals who believed that LIV Golf would simply go away and peter out, the gamers would cease competing. And that’s probably not what occurred. The announcement that the PGA Tour and the LIV Golf could be tied up beneath a brand new entity got here as a shock to many onlookers, however really got here as a shock to just about all the gamers on the PGA Tour and in LIV Golf as properly. From what we all know, this deal seems to have been negotiated by a small group of folks that didn’t need it leaked. And so I believe this was a large announcement, however in reality, the truth is, we’re nonetheless not solely positive what the deal’s going to appear to be. After this deal was introduced, the commissioner acquired a variety of pushback from the gamers who felt like that they had been betrayed.

BRIAN KENNY: We also needs to add that Jay Monahan all through 2022 actually did vilify the LIV Tour, and notably, the connection that they had with the Saudi authorities.

ALEX MACKAY: Yeah. He had taken a really aggressive stance towards the supply of funding for LIV Golf. And so for him to then go and say, really, the PGA Tour goes to take funding from the very same sources, a variety of the gamers felt confused. They felt betrayed. And so this was a large shock. The gamers solely assembly that occurred after the announcement obtained very heated. Immediate reactions by the PGA Tour gamers had been alongside the traces of, it’s madness. Some individuals thought the LIV Tour was lifeless within the water, however now they had been form of being rescued by this infusion of cash. Monahan form of owned as much as this. He stated, “I recognize everything I’ve said in the past in my prior positions. I recognize that people are going to call me a hypocrite.” But in the long run, it simply got here out this week that he needed to step away for a couple of month. And he stated he was affected by anxiousness from the pushback of the deal. So this was not welcome information to lots of the gamers on the PGA Tour. It was not welcome information to lots of the followers who had agreed with the place taken by the commissioner previously 12 months.

BRIAN KENNY: And talking as a communications skilled, I might say it was not dealt with properly on the communications entrance both. So there’s one other case examine to be written about that down the highway. Let me ask you this. I form of teased this up within the introduction as a case about disruptive innovation, which it sounds wish to me, however I’ll ask that query to you. Do you see the LIV tour as having been a disruptor to the established PGA Tour?

ALEX MACKAY: I believe that’s an acceptable characterization. One key theme of LIV golf was innovation. We’re going to vary the format of the game. We’re going to vary how gamers are compensated. We’re going to vary the tone round what golf is, and we’re going to attempt to attain a unique viewers than had been reached earlier than. I believe there was nonetheless a query of whether or not or not they might in the end achieve success on their very own. And I believe that query stays. This deal that was introduced is definitely not a achieved deal. It’s been present process overview. The Senate has investigated it, Department of Justice has introduced it’s investigating it. So it’s in the end not clear what the deal would appear to be. It has been introduced that, a minimum of the gamers being advised that this could count on to play via 2024 and past. And so I believe there’s an actual query of whether or not or not this entity can exist and succeed.

BRIAN KENNY: Yeah, and I believe we’ve seen many examples of corporations being disrupted and shopping for up the competitors a lot in the identical approach that the PGA Tour has moved ahead with LIV on this proposed deal. Alex, this has been an incredible dialog. I knew it could be. Let me ask you, simply to finish right here with one last considered, if you need our listeners to recollect one factor about this LIV case, what wouldn’t it be?

ALEX MACKAY: I believe this can be a nice case through which to consider what’s greatest. When we’re making an attempt to say what ought to the PGA Tour do, we’re excited about what’s greatest usually from the attitude of the PGA Tour as a enterprise. But you may additionally give it some thought, what’s greatest for the game of golf? And these may not be the identical reply. Furthermore, you would possibly need to ask what’s greatest for the golfers themselves? And in the long term, what’s greatest for the golfers may very well be greatest for the game. This is a state of affairs the place you’ve these completely different stakeholders with completely different wants and pursuits, and they’re coming into battle. And LIV Golf is in some methods making an attempt to take this supply of battle and use it for its personal profit.

BRIAN KENNY: And they are saying that competitors is sweet for the purchasers in the end. And I might say that’s in all probability true on this case too.

ALEX MACKAY: I do know that personally I’ve discovered that storyline of LIV versus the PGA tour to be very entertaining in the case of the majors.

BRIAN KENNY: Yeah. Alex, thanks for becoming a member of me on Cold Call.

ALEX MACKAY: This has been fantastic, Brian. Thank you.

BRIAN KENNY: If you get pleasure from Cold Call, you would possibly like our different podcasts, After Hours, Climate Rising, Deep Purpose, IdeaCast, Managing the Future of Work, Skydeck, and Women at Work. Find them on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you hear, and in the event you may take a minute to charge and overview us, we’d be grateful. If you’ve any strategies or simply need to say howdy, we need to hear from you. Email us at coldcall@hbs.edu. Thanks once more for becoming a member of us. I’m your host, Brian Kenny, and you’ve been listening to Cold Call, an official podcast of Harvard Business School and a part of the HBR Podcast Network.